Michael O'Callaghan
I would like to thank our panel for their very interesting presentations. Now let's open this discussion to you out there. Some of our speakers have to leave after lunch, so we've got an hour or so, and Ruaidhri has to leave in half an hour. So if you have questions for the speakers, let's focus on those first and then get into a discussion amongst ourselves about what we may be able to do here in this country. Do you have any questions?
Michael Lemass
We are talking about trying to get a GM ban in Ireland. Surely this has got to be a cross-border ban, so how do we get the English government to agree with the Irish government?
Michael O'Callaghan
Yes. Does anyone have any views about working across the border with our counterparts in Northern Ireland?
Mary Lou McDonald (Sinn Fein)
We wrote to the leaders of all the other political parties in the Six Counties asking them to support a call for the North to become a GM-free area. Now obviously at the minute the Northern Assembly is in suspension but we certainly envisage that when the Assembly comes back there will be a political demand. There is, generally speaking, a level of consensus across the parties so certainly we expect it can be done with relative ease.
In the meantime, while the Assembly is unfortunately in suspension, we are asking the party leaders and the parties to come together to lobby the relevant Ministers to review the situation.
The other thing is that a number of Councils in the North have actually made declarations around being GM-free, including Newry and Armagh and the County of Fermanagh. And I know there are similar initiatives in other Councils up there. We along with others have also attempted to bring this issue to Councils in the 26 counties. For instance here in Dublin I know a motion was filed, although I don't think it has been taken yet. So there is absolutely a potential for us to work across the island of Ireland - through the local democratic structures, through the Assembly in the North when it is up and running, and through Leinster House. So if we manage to synthesize all of those elements on a cross-party basis, we will have a very very powerful statement from elected representatives, a very powerful democratic mandate to make this island GM-free.
Michael O'Callaghan
It will be wonderful if we can get a cross-party discussion going on this at our conference in June.
Adrian Bebb (Friends of the Earth Europe)
Friends of the Earth in Northern Ireland wrote to all the political parties about three or four years ago. Every political party in Northern Ireland agreed on the GM issue. At the time I think it was the only issue they all agreed on, so it is definitely a goer!
Young woman in audience
I'd like to thank Adrian for finishing on a slightly more optimistic tone! I'm quite new to all of this and, frankly, it's terrifying. There is so much misinformation, and confusion and justifiably alarming stuff. But from a consumer point of view, I am just wondering how we can have any faith in traceability and accountability and labeling when we are buying food. If things are labeled as GM-free, how can we be sure there is no GM contamination somewhere along the line along the food chain?
Michael O'Callaghan
Ruaidhri, would you like to comment on this?
Ruaidhri Deasy (Irish Farmers Association)
The first thing I would say is that I have no problem standing over Irish food. There are no GM products here. As I mentioned earlier, it's rice, cotton, maize, sugar beet and so forth. So we don't haveÖ Our only problem or possibility of contamination, if you like, is through the importation of animal feedstuffs: corn gluten (which is obviously from maize) and soya. But Sainsbury's [he meant to refer to Marks & Spencer ‚ Ed.] and more and more people are getting worried, we have to label. There is legislation out now on labeling feedstuffs, even though the feed mills are fighting tooth and nail not to have that labeling on a percentage basis. There are more and more people and it is quite possible. For example my farm is a GM-free zone because I only use feed from my own barley and oats. I don't use anything else.
Secondly the IFA has done an awful lot of work on traceability. We don't have our heads in the sand. As I said, we are a punch-bag for every sort of ill and every sort of person who wants to have a go at farmers because of a chip in their shoulder or whatever it is. We are very conscious of working with the consumer who is our client, after all. And I'm quite happy with the traceability that is on the food coming from Ireland. So let's not talk ourselves into depression here. The genie is not out of the bottle, per se, in Ireland at the moment. And I want to thank a past generation of hippies who went down to Carnsore Point ‚ I was there with long hair myself back in the sixties - to keep nuclear power out of Ireland. We have the lowest Dioxin levels in the world - bar one which is New Zealand ‚ the lowerst in the world! Understand that!
(applause)
Voice from audience: Not for long!
Ruaidhri Deasy
And secondly, our waters are the cleanest in the world. So we just have to get a little bit of perspective on this. I think what you're trying to do today is to declare Ireland a GM-free zone. I would quantify that by saying I want to see research in completely confined areas down in Teagasc at Oak Park. But it is specifically designed laboratories where there is no cross-contamination, where the air is filtered and it cannot get out, so that's important.
With regard to world farming, I think there is an organisation called the IFAP ‚ which is the International Federation of Farmers (I've probably got that wrong but I think IFAP is what it is) and I have an idea that they are coming to Ireland very shortly, but I think that's an area where farmers representatives from India, Ireland, Germany Austria and so forth will see, and I think that's probably a forum where you should do it.
With regard to IFA we will be debating the issue, but as I said I wouldn't advise bringing anybody who would antagonize the issue. It has to be a cool calm debate. I think there is enough fact there to win it without sexing it up, because once you do that you're in danger of losing the argument and giving ammunition to the other side.
Chris Samra-Tibbets (GM-free Cymru)
I would like to answer to that as well. I don't want to be the voice of Doom. We have got European labeling now ‚ things should be labeled - but I think people may not be aware that you can have up to 0.9% of GM ingredients in a product and it can be labeled GM-free. That's nearly 1% of GM in a product and still it can be labeled GM-free, so that is worrying. And also while Europe has said yes, a product should be labeled, they have not set up any monitoring system. That's going to be expensive and I'm not sure how it's going to be done.
Michael O'Callaghan
RichardÖ
Richard Auler (Irish Organic Farmers and Growers Association)
Thank you very much. I'd like to introduce myself. Richard Auler is my name and I'm an organic farmer. We are preaching more or less to the converted here which is wonderful, we have so much agreement! But how can we bring this campaign further? How can make it efficient? We have local elections coming up soon. And I'm speaking here particularly to Ruaidhri Deasy from the IFA, who has 85,000 members, 150,000 votes. Could you encourage your people to engage the canvassers and encourage them to ask the critical questions? Because we will not get anywhere without involving the politicians. And the politicians don't know anything about it. I have an invitation to attend a meeting in Portlaoise ‚ at last ‚ next week, where the Department of Agriculture in its wisdom has now established a group to look into the co-existence of organic, conventional and GM crops. At last! After a lot of pressure from the organic side, they are doing something.
Another point which didn't come up at all today: What is the ethical view on introducing GMOs? I have a very strong view personally, but maybe someone else may want to say something.
Michael O'Callaghan
We will have a discussion on the ethical aspect at our conference in June. We have already got a commitment from Fr. Seán McDonagh of the Columban Missionaries, who will talk about it. We're very keen to bring religious organisations into this conversation, because they are one of the stakeholders and obviously the ethical side is a key aspect of the whole thing. In Germany it's interesting to note that most of the farmland that is owned by the Protestant churches - together with a growing section of the farmland owned by the Catholic church - is GM-free. They have got the farmers who grow on their lands to sign a contract agreeing not to grow GM crops. So that's another contribution the churches could make here.
Would anyone else like to comment on that?
Adrian Bebb (Friends of the Earth Europe)
Regarding what you can do, my advice would be to work together. Having lots of different organizations doing their own little things or individuals doing their own things is not strong enough. You have got work together in a big alliance. What we have seen in the UK, in Germany, in France and other countries is that, as Ruaidhri said, everyone is on our side on this issue.
We need to bring those organisations which represent the public all on board. So your consumer groups, your farming groups, your environment groups, bring them all on board because then you have the collective membership which represents civil society. You can work on lots of different levels. You can work on the local level where an individual landowner or farm declares itself GM-free. Look in the UK: the National Trust which is the biggest landowner in the UK is GM-free. Look at the Coop supermarket chain, that's the largest farmer in the UK, that's GM-free. So you can work at the local level. You can work at the Local Authority, the Council level, where you get them to agree not to use GM products in their school meals or hospitals and so on, or on the land they own, the Churches, that sort of level. And work up to the national level.
I think you are in a similar situation to the UK because the UK Government is so pro GM. But what we've done is to start at the local level by getting political support across the UK at the local level against GM, which is in complete contrast to the national government. So there are many ways of working, many layers you can work on, but I do recommend you work together and you form an alliance to take it forward.
Jim O'Connor (Plan Organic)
Good morning. My name is Jim O'Connor. I'm from West Cork, I have been a conventional farmer in the past, some people say today that I'm an activist, and I also run a web site which covers organic and GM things. I've been here for the past few days, I've been to a few conferences, and I'm confused. I'm confused firstly about sex. Not an issue you'd think I could get confused about, GM, sustainability, organic, and sex. But on one hand Ruaidhri Deasy told us we mustn't sex up the issue. I attended a very serious conference on Friday with six professors, who said we must make the sustainability argument sexy! Right? So there we have on the one hand and on the other. But in fact I think my mind is almost made up because I went to see a film two days ago, sponsored by the festival here, called Go Further! by Woody Harrelson. It was a road movie, and it was a fantastic way of making the issues we have been talking about here today and for the past few days, making them sexy. The main character in the film says, when he gets turned on by this lovely young lady "My God, she makes me feel organic!" I'm sorry, I'm confused about sex, but one thing I'm not confused about and that's Monsanto, right?
Today we're standing on the shoulders of giants who in fact have been making the anti-GM argument in Ireland for a number of years, albeit a bit quiet for the last couple of years, and it's great to see, you know, people getting very active about it again. We mustn't forget that these people, they caused Monsanto, you know, which won a legal battle here in Ireland, to leave the country! You know, they've gone. So we mustn't forget this. We've done an awful lot here. We've actually set a precedent. We drove Monsanto out of Ireland! Yes? [Note: Monsanto Ireland was not driven out of the country - in fact their CEO Patrick O'Reilly attended part of this workshop ‚ Ed.] Now we hear today that Monsanto are now leaving the UK. I reported on my web site today that in fact Monsanto has been terminated in Venezuela, this week. It hasn't been reported in any other news agency in the world apart from one activist GM site. A 500,000 acre project by Monsanto in Venezuela has been terminated, that's the word used by President Chavez. So as I said, I'm still a bit confused about sex, not confused about Monsanto and still making up my mind about lots of side issues. But I would ask Mr. Deasy one thing. I was talking to him there privately, and I am totally convinced that just like most of the people here he is a decent man. He's done wonderful stuff you know in Africa, in his time as a volunteer, he is an activist. And he said a few minutes ago that his farm was to all intents and purposes already GM-free, because he grows his own barley and doesn't buy it in, you know, the third GM-free zone in Ireland.
Ruaidhri Deasy
I've no problem whatsoever, because it is the truth. I've no intention as I said of turning it into GM or sowing anything in that regard. That's my own personal farm, so don't mix up that I'm representing 85,000 thousand farmers on this, I want to make that clear.
[Michael presents Ruaidhri with a large "GM-free farm" sign, to great applause and laughter from the audience.]
Michael O'Callaghan
Here's a sign for you, Ruaidhri.
Ruaidhri Deasy
Fine. On some of the other aspects: ethics. Don't bring ethics into this thing. Once you start bringing in ethics you start clouding the argument. You start bringing emotion into it - whether I'm for abortion or against abortion - it's dynamite! I stay well clear of that. I think ethics has to remain with the conscience of the individual person, so I would stay well away from that.
Now the organic way is certainly a personal choice. But don't kid yourselves. There is only a limited market for organics in Ireland, in Europe, in Austria. Now face facts. Austria, which has been quoted there before, they had a target of getting 20% organic milk. Once they passed 12 or 15% the market collapsed and there was no more incentive for the farmer there. I accept that as an organic farmer you need to have a higher return in order to stay in business, and that's fair enough. But don't kid yourselves to say that farmers can go organic the whole way, we can't. And neither do I think that there is a need for the whole country to go organic. I think you have to put that in context.
[Note: Ireland has less than 1% of its farmland under organic cultivation, compared to 3% in the UK, 10% in Italy and 15% in Austria. Ireland and the UK both import 70% of the organic food we consume. The global organic market has been growing steadily between 25 and 30% a year for ten years and is now over €25 billion a year. - Ed.]
I accept some of the points that were made earlier to say that you cannot produce food without cost, and if you lower the cost you lower the standards by necessity, and malpractice will come in because people will be cutting corners in order to survive and stay in business. And here the power of the multiples [i.e. supermarkets ‚ Ed.] cannot be underestimated. They are almost multinationals. Their power to squeeze down prices and put the farmer and the processor under enormous pressure cannot be underestimated, it is huge. And as an organisation, the IFA had a slow shop over milk. It was impossible for us to produce milk, just taking this as an example, and it's a cross border thing too: at 99 cents for two litres the farmer was getting 36 cents, so two times 36 brings you to 72, and where in Heaven's name are you going with 20 cents to package, to process, and to bring it down, and have the supermarket itself have some bit of profit on it? It was completely wrong.
So to sum up, although I don't want to pollute the countryside with signs, I have no problem in saying that my farm is GM-free, and that in consultation my wife will agree to it too, because we are a partnership.
I want to make one other point before I leave since I have to go soon: I accept that GM products have not been fully tested, but each one of you here has probably eaten GM food or some minute particle of it, and it hasn't killed you. There are people who smoke, who drink, who eat too much and that will kill them in a far quicker way. The argument is there to be won, but do not quote false statistics or hype them up, like we're going to lose 70% of our seeds. There is inevitably going to be evolution. You know, that's going to happen up or down and we can't stop that because we don't understand our world completely. So you know, biodiversity, sure, it's terribly important, but say it as it is, and be clear and don't hype up the argument, because the minute you hype up you're in danger of giving ammunition to the other side to say you're exaggerating. Don't exaggerate your argument, just say it as it is.
Bridget Carlin (Irish Seed Savers Association)
I wasn't saying what's going to happen. I was saying what has happened! I'm not hyping anything up. In fact the figures I quoted were probably underestimates. I said 75% of agricultural diversity has been lost world-wide in the 20th century. These figures are from the United Nations, who are a fairly conservative organisation. And it hasn't happened through natural means. It's happened through the intervention of agro-chemical companies taking over seed production since the 1950's and 60's. I just had to refute what you said, Ruaidhri.
Ruaidhri Deasy
Well I equally refute what you say.
Michael O'callaghan
OK, does anyone else have any question for Ruaidhri?
Woman in audience
Apropos the feed that comes in. If GM feed is fed to the animals - to the cows for instance - what is the result in the milk that comes out of the cows that we will be drinking? Will there be GM ingredients in the milk if the cows are fed GM animal feed products, and do the farmers have to state this?
Michael O'Callaghan
Ruaidhri Deasy
No problem at all. Again it's not as if it's the cow's full diet. The cow's full diet is mostly grass in which there are obviously no GMOs. It's only a very small percentage of meal that's fed to cows, and of that you might feed somewhere in the region of a third of a ton or half a ton - it depends how intensive you are or where you are farming. And of that third of a ton or half of a ton, there is only probably about 30% of the third if you know what I mean which is maize bran or corn gluten or even less of soy. You only put about 15% soy bean into a ration. So you are getting down to fairly minute details, and as a percentage of the cow's body weight or the cow's milk, to be honest I don't know. I don't claim to be an expert but what I do say is that farmers, by and large, are using more of our own native-produced barley and wheat, because it is cheaper since the price of the Fishler [CAP reform has made them] go down, and therefore it's competitive.
Our only problem is that the Yanks want to pump their stuff into it; they'd love to contaminate the whole lot of us! And I think it's the duty of the industry and it's probably also a duty not only of farmers and producers, but I'd say you're going to see the likes of Dunnes stores and Sainsbury's [meaning Marks & Spencer] and so forth asking for full traceability or people to declare. But it's not the farmersÖ We get no benefit. Whether it's GM or non-GM it's of no benefit to us, it's just the actual additional food that's there. And I think farmers who are feeding it or buying in feed are not willing participants in the whole chain. It's just by stealth that it has come in.
Michael O'Callaghan
The Independent Science Panel on GM has published a report entitiled The Case for a GM-free Sustainable World [408kb PDF file] which is available on the GM-free Ireland website and has information to answer your question about the proteins that are passed on through the digestive tracks of the animals into their flesh, into their milk and so on. And also about the passing on of the genetically modified proteins into humans.
Cecilia Armelin (Dietician)
I was encouraged, Ruaidhri, when you said a few minutes ago that you fed your animals a feed that is more based on barley. For 15 years or so I have always promoted the idea that Ireland should feed humans and animals on foods that are locally grown, and that these local foods are more sustainable. So barley is more sustainable in Ireland. And in order to make up the protein profile - the amino acid profile - I think the farmers have been forced to feel the need to give soya or maize, which actually doesn't have a good amino acid profile. I am asking whether you could supplement your feed with another good amino acid grain like Amaranth which is grows in Mexico (as I think Chris Samra-Tibbets or Bridget Carlin also mentioned). Amaranth is a very good grain that has good iron, good calcium and good amino acid - a fairly high profile that is missing in our grains. Soya and maize are the least sustainable grain or legume for us here because they only grow in hot climates. So can we not in Ireland feed our animals and people on crops that are sustainable in Ireland? Oats, barley, more rye, more wheat as you said, that we can grow in Ireland. Is it possible that you could not use soya and maize, Ruaidhri, in your animal feedstuffs?
Ruaidhri Deasy
No problem whatsoever. For example beans are a big leguminous source of protein for animal feed. There is a problem with feeding pigs with beans, there is a problem there. The poultry industry and the pig industry are very intensive obviously in grains. It is possible to get non-GM soya for example from Brazil, but it's now actually commanding a premium over the other thing because there is such a demand for it! But with regard to sheep, cattle and milk cows, there is no problem having completely GM-free animal feed.
There is actually a chap called Charlie Green who produces a totally Irish GM-free animal feed and it's excellent. We're using peas, another form of protein as well, so there are ways around it. As I said I myself am a suckler and sheep farmer and I grow tillage as well, and I have no problem whatsoever in fattening my cattle on just rolled barley (with some minerals added in), none whatsoever.
Joe Glynn
A couple of points to be made. About 20 years ago I joined the Irish Organic Farmers and Growers Association and worked briefly with them. At the time it was actually quite a young organization and it was trying to get some support from the government to develop the organic sector. And I remember proposals were submitted to the government for the strategic development of the organic sector. The sort of things the association wanted to look at and wanted the government to look at was scope for co-ordinated production and distribution of produce, which would bring about economies of scale and which would help develop the sector. This was in 1984.
Unfortunately these submitted proposals were rejected by the five government agencies responsible for food and developing the food sector. I watched over the last twenty years how the organic sector struggled through hard work and passionate effort of the people involved, while in large measure they were neglected by the government, by Teagasc and other agencies.
Then in 2002 the very same study which we had actually been proposed 18 years previously was undertaken by the government's own Organic Development Committee. It took 18 years to take the message on board!
During the interval, people from Teagasc came to organic conferences and said there's no market for organic stuff. Of course there is a market! Everybody wants organic stuff! And if this sector is given the support to develop, it can produce the goods and achieve economies of scale both in production and distribution and retail.
I have to say I was very heartened when I heard Evan Doyle's presentation and I think Euro-Toques Ireland can be proud that they have a very articulate and clear spokesperson who is putting the consumers first and the small producers, the thousands of small companies who are producing wonderful quality produce. We ought to remember that this is an important attraction for tourists and that it's also an important factor in our quality of life. I'm also very heartened to hear the favorable indications and open-mindedness of the IFA to consider the concerns of people in the environment sector, and to keep in mind the ethical concerns if not to debate them.
But I am also very concerned. Without any public debate, this government has committed a billion euro of taxpayers' money for research and development of the biotech sector. One billion euro has gone towards Science Foundation Ireland. They are putting all our eggs, all the R&D investment - a crucial investment for the future - into science and biotech. Without any public debate, we are being told we must all go into science, we must all go into biotechnology and whatnot. I'm concerned.
Is it possible to stop this biotech monolith? Because it is really an opportunistic land-grab, unfortunately: it's part of a globally emerging trend of primitive accumulation - the grasping of land, seeds, water and natural resources. This is happening globally. We are seeing investors acting en masse moving towards strategic resources in areas where they can secure a monopoly. And biotech is obviously a cutting-edge sector in this trend of primitive accumulation.
I'm also concerned that the media is not giving the coverage, not providing the forum for debate on these issues. Ruaidhri Deasy has referred to our side sexing up our argument, but I've seen Monsanto sexing up it's arguments. I've send endless amounts of PR and spin through the media from the corporations saying that this stuff is safe, that it can feed the world, that we have no choice. And yet they have no insurance: they have externalized the risks for all this technology.
I'm concerned that there is no alternative but direct action to actually stop this. I'd be interested to know the views of the panel, but I think that unless the media will provide the forum for a fair debate - where organizations like Euro-Toques, the organic growers, ordinary people, the nuns with their ethical concerns which are equally important, are allowed to be heard - that direct action is justified.
I think there is also an economic debate here about where our worldly money goes and about our children being coerced into particular types of education. And I think ultimately that the biotech industry is a bubble. Our government has taken a huge risk by investing a billion euro of public resources in it, because European consumers will also reject it and we may find ourselves quite unpopular in Europe for having abandoned what it was that was precious about Ireland, for the sake of a quick buck. Sorry to go on. Thank you.
(applause)
Ruaidhri Deasy
I'd love to have more time, but I have to go now. Just two things I would say to you. First, don't mix up organics and GMOs. You've got to fight one case at a time. Our problem, our focus and our target is Monsanto because they are the big GMOs. Organic farming and all the rest of it: there is a perception among farmers that organics is a different clique and they think they know best. That's the first thing I'd say.
You're on about GMOs. GMO equals Monsanto. Don't blame the media, blame yourself if you lose the battle with the media. You either get your point across or you don't - it's not the media's fault. The media will pick up on it. And remember what I was saying about not sexing up the argument. Monsanto have sexed up the argument, and having done that they are actually losing the battle, and the more they do it the more they lose the battle. Do not from this side fall into the same trap: just keep it cold, keep it rational, and you're going to win because they're going backwards doing that. So for God's sake don't employ the same tactics.
With regard to research, Teagasc are doing research in Athenry I think on milk, and they also had a unit down in Johnstown Castle. So we are conscious that we have to service that side of the industry and farming in organics, and I put on a Teagasc hat in that respect. And as I've always said with regard to organic farming: it's much harder to be an organic farmer than to be a conventional farmer. You need to be a far better one. So I take my hat off to anyone who makes a living through organic farming.
Just on one last note I'd like to brighten it up a bit. Farming is a tremendous vocation around the world. It's a tremendous life. And I'm proud to be a farmer. I'm proud to have reared my children and had the opportunity to do that. And as I said I have farmed in Africa and I have farmed here at home all my life. I'll never ever get rich at it, never! But I have a great lifestyle and have educated my children and that's a privilege too. And I think there are significant advantages compared to the children who are educated and brought up in the inner city. I've seen them dancing around, drugged to the last fourteen year old. And I think we, as farmers should be proud and appreciative that our lifestyle offers that opportunity to our children. And certainly - as producers of the food - we don't want to do anything to our customers or clients that would jeopardize either their health or the environment or the country.
But I do believe we should be dispassionate and allow independent science to continue, because unless you have science to back upÖ that always has to be there, and I think so long as [GM crop research] is done in an enclosed environment in a specific laboratory as we are doing in Teagasc, it should be allowed to continue. I think it would be wrong for this side of the argument to call for the whole thing to be closed down.
Yyou can certainly get farmers on side to grow no GM crops. And as I pointed out, GM maize, cotton, soya, rape seed and beet - none of those five crops are needed in Ireland and I would argue that they are not needed in the world either. Thank you.
Michael O'Callaghan
Let's just have another five minutes of questions.
Young woman in audience
This gentleman over here brought the media into the debate, and it's great to see that more people have come along as the morning has gone on. But I would just like to have a quick show of hands from people who are here representing the media in any shape or form. That might bring it out into the open.
(Two people raise their hands)
Michael O'Callaghan
We have Iva Pocock who writes occasionally for the Irish Times, and our panel speaker Pavi Chalam from India. A journalist from RTE was also here to interview some of the panel, but she has left.
(Ruaidhri Deasy starts to leave the room)
Michael O'Callaghan
Ruaidhri, thank you.
(applause)
Any other questions?
Woman in audience
I'm very naïve in this, but my question is: in spite of the fact that so much researchers and consumers are saying no to GM, why is the government saying yes? What's in it for them?
Michael O'Callaghan
Sponsorship! A lot of governments around the world - not just in Ireland - now represent the interests of multinational corporations more than the interest of their own citizens. Ireland is the most economically globalised country in the world, which means that our government is very much in bed with big business. Now on any issue where there is controversy, it's very easy to blame and project all the evil onto the other side, you know? We should to be careful to avoid that: not everybody who works for big business, and not every big business is evil. But there are problems, and there is a lack of accountability, and there is a global movement for corporate social responsibility.
But here in Ireland, it certainly appears that there was a deal done between Bertie Ahern and US National Security Adviser Sandy Berger [Note: Sandy Berger, who was the National Security Adviser under Bill Clinton, is quoted as agreeing with the statement that "American power, particularly military power, is the central force for positive change in the world!"]. America put pressure on Ireland to take an active role in promoting GM crops around Europe; I was told this by father Seán McDonagh who described the details in his book Patenting Life [Patenting Life? Stop! Is corporate greed forcing us to eat genetically modified food? Dominican Publications, Dublin. 2003. ISBN 1-871552-85-0. €14.99. www.dominicanpublications.com.]
But we the citizens are also responsible: we live in a democracy, and if we don't like what our government is doing it's really up to us to change it!
Adrian Bebb
Just very briefly on the context of how we got as far as we did with this technology, and see it rejected. It was seen as the next best thing, the new sliced bread. And for twenty years the agricultural scientific research stations were all getting involved in the GM stuff, they thought this was going to be the future. But they made two really big mistakes: one, they never asked the consumers what they wanted, and also they never asked questions like what effect it would have on the environment, and these are two very big areas. But by this time, the big multinationals were on board and bought up all the small scientific developments, the small companies, and the multinationals thought ìYes, we can use this to market our products around the worldî. The governments were on board, because all the scientific establishments were on board, and this has been building over the last twenty years. And it was only when they brought the products to the market they realized that they had forgotten to ask the public what they thought. That's how they got into such a mess and why these governments are on board. And yes, big money. If you look at the UK, Lord Sainsbury is the biggest funder of the Labour Party, he is a Minister - that's why he bought himself a place at the table - and he's got huge investments in the biotech industry, which are all in blind trusts and he doesn't know what they are doing of course. But that money and that power has got right to the heart of government. And I think this is why the tactics are not very clean anymore as well, because we've upset them, the public has upset them that their big experiment hasn't been accepted. They didn't expect that, Monsanto didn't expect that. That's why they launched these big advertising campaigns when they arrived. They thought it was going to be easy and they got it totally 100% wrong.
(applause)
Michael O'Callaghan
In Ireland it's important for people to understand how the policy making works. There are two bodies of the government that are responsible for advising government policy on GM. One is the Food Safety Authority of Ireland, which advises on foods and what foods can be legalized. And the other is the Environmental Protection Agency, which advises on which crops can be legalized. Both of those bodies have biotech advisory committees made up of mostly scientists whose opinion ultimately counts or guides government policy. Now I think there's a real democratic deficit in the make-up of those committees. If you look at the list of names and go through them, you will probably find that the vast majority are either directly or indirectly employed by the biotech sector, or are academics whose careers depend on funding by biotech companies. It's a difficult problem to deal with because by nature most of the experts on the scientific side will be people who work in the sector!
We need more civil society representation on those committees, and I'm absolutely devastated that the head of the Consumers Association of Ireland, which is supposed to represent the interests of Irish consumers (and whom I invited to speak here today), is totally in favour of GM: he uses all the arguments that biotech companies use and says GM is great and more nutritious and so on. So we really need more citizens to stand up and speak about this issue.
Joe Glynn
One other reason why the biotech sector was able to make huge progress is because they were already breaking new ground in legal terms and intellectual property terms, and they actually caught the legislators off guard, unprepared. Franz Fishler was asked in the late 1990s why - given the opposition within the European Commission and given the stated opposition of so many people to GM - why was it that that the European Union was being so accommodating to the biotech interests? And apparently the response was they had actually stolen the march on the legislators in legal terms; they were well ahead of them, they were so well prepared they were able to set the legal agenda and the WTO rules to justify their demands.
Brid Banville (Euro-Toques Ireland)
Just to conclude, I think that for GM-free Ireland to move forward, we should try to get cross-party agreement by June, letters from all the political parties including the parties in Northern Ireland to say that they are agreeable to a GM-free Ireland.
The other element that we should aim for by June - it's a pity that Ruaidhri is gone ‚ is to have the IFA farmers agree not to use GM products in their animal feed. That would mean a GM-free Ireland other than whatever food produce we import and buy in the supermarkets or whatever.
Michael O'Callaghan
That would be very good. What I would love to see following our discussion this afternoon is an agreement among stakeholders to formally set up a democratically-run charitable organization called GM-free Ireland or the GM-free Ireland Network. This would fund a campaign that would be kicked off with the conference we are planning in June, and extend beyond that with outreach to local authorities to inform them about the procedure that they can use for declaring their areas GM-free, outreach to farmers and farming organizations to educate them on the economic benefits on remaining GM-free, outreach to the media and to the food industry and other stakeholders. Because this process is really about community organizing.
I would now like to thank you all again very much for coming. It's not over yet: we have a light lunch provided by Nude restaurant, and after that those of you who wish to stay are most welcome to continue this conversation in our afternnon strategy discussion on what we can do to move this whole agenda forward.
Thank you.
Richard Auler
I'd just like one minute of your attention. This man here has single-handedly started something out of nothing. I've tried to support him as much as I can for a good while but he has done Trojan work and I'd like to take this occasion to express publicly my personal thanks to him and, I hope, your thanks as well.
(applause)
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